Transcript of “Rights Here, Rights Now” –

Episode 42: "I Care A Lot" Movie Discussion About Guardianship with Dana Traynham!

Produced by the disAbility Law Center of Virginia.                                                            

 

[INTRO]:                          The information provided on this podcast does not, and is not intended to, constitute legal advice. Instead, all information, content and materials available are for general informational purposes only.

[Enter host, Suzanne Herbst.]

 

[Suzanne Herbst]:       Welcome to Rights Here, Rights Now!- a podcast about disability advocacy, and activism. I'm your Advocate host, Suzanne Herbst.

 

[Enter host, Virginia Pharis]

 

[Virginia Pharis]:          And I'm your Advocate host, Virginia Pharis.

 

[Suzanne Herbst]:        Every two weeks we dig into to relevant issues, current events, and avenues for self-advocacy.

 

[Virginia Pharis]:          ‘Cause someone has to.

 

[Suzanne Herbst]:        And it might as well be us!

 

[Virginia Pharis]:

*This podcast is produced and edited by the disAbility Law Center of Virginia, the Commonwealth’s protection and advocacy agency for disability rights.*

 

[Enter, Virginia Pharis & Suzanne Herbst, again]:

 

[Suzanne H.]:                 Today, we have our wonderful, and delightful, Dana Traynham back on the podcast to talk about the Netflix film: I Care a Lot. And, we're going to                                                                                   have an interesting conversation about guardianship how it's portrayed in that film, and, (then), how it really is, in the state of Virginia.

 

[Virginia P.]:                  Yeah. We didn't mean to break Dana, but, we did we did it- for your entertainment. So, the least you can do is like, share, and subscribe, and, join us, as we delve into this film.

 

[Suzanne H.]:                 And before we jump in, let's check out disability in the news!

 

Vaccine efforts continue to rise with the introduction of a new national hotline. The Administration for Community Living and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention partnered with several disability councils to create the Disability Information and Access Line.  This is a first of it’s kind national hotline offering information and services directly aimed at boosting access to COVID-19 vaccines for people with disabilities in the United States. The hotline can help people find nearby vaccine sites, make appointments, and link people with local services like accessible transportation. The hotline can also provide information and resources to answer any questions about the vaccines and can connect callers to information and services promoting independent living and address needs such as food, housing, and transportation. The hotline is an amazing tool that will continue to grow and add resources and be a vital connection point for people with disabilities. You may call 888-677-1199 for the hotline or email DIAL@n4a.org.

                                          

[Virginia P]:                    Today, on this very special episode a lot of people have been contacting dLCV in the wake of the rock in the world Netflix movie I care a lot starring Rosamund Pike the movie details the exploits of an abusive        guardian and a lot of people have been wondering, you know, is this, something that could happen to me or my loved one? And, you know, what do we need to do to make sure that it's not [happening]?!? So, in the studio today, we have Dana Traynham.

 

                                           And, uh, oh my God, Dana what do I need to do-- How do I make this not                                                        happen??

 

[Enter, once again, honored guest, Dana Traynham. ]

 

[Dana’s laughing/laughter]

 

[Dana Traynham]:       Hi, guys- It's so great to be back with you! J

 

[Suzanne Herbst]:        We are so excited to have you! I feel like at the top of this I should quickly say: Spoiler Alert! If you haven't seen the movie-- and you don't want it spoiled for you-- don't listen to this podcast right now. Watch the movie. Come back! we would love to have you back in about two hours after you watch the film and have lots of questions!

 

[Erin]:                               Yeah, just..stop it. STOP whatever you're doing even if you're driving! - Not if you're driving-  but, you can come back to this! It's important to have seen the movie first (pause)…unless you plan to never do that.

 

[Dana]:                            [Interrupts] Which may not be such a bad idea. I- I have to say, guys, this was (one) - one of the most disturbing movies I think I have ever watched. And, I've watched a lot of disturbing movies! And. I think it's because, it's, so many movies we watch, as if, it’s like: “That would never happen to me.” Right? You know, I would never work walk in that dark room, where, you know, when you watch a movie- and they yell: DON’T GO IN THERE! You know, so, like--  ‘that would never happen to me;’

 

                                           I'd never be that stupid to walk in that dark room.  But- this is- this is-  different, this, this, this is scary stuff.

 

[Virginia]:                       Yeah. My Horror Movie Aficionado husband watch this with me, and, entire time like unlike any other movie I've ever watched with him he spent the whole time going, like: OH my GOD! But! -- is that--  could that—Oh no, oh no, oh no! This is awful.

 

 

[Dana T.]:                        Yeah. Yeah. This really could happen! I mean, I imagine that is one of the main questions people have at the end of it. I mean, this is fiction, and is not based on any actual true story, but I would say that it's probably based on many true stories. And so, the answer to the question, “Could this happen outside of the realm of possibility?” [Yes.] And I think it is (true!), which is another reason this movie was so disturbing to watch.

 

[Virginia P.]:                  Okay, so it'd be in an early scene, and one other one, is, this is, [you know], sort of the first question, that was, Sprinted across the couch at me when I was watching this was:

 

                                           “Is it true?”

                                          

                                           Somebody can just come to your door with the guardianship order? You've never been to a hearing, and you know, now they say: “Hey I'm your ‘Guardian, now; and, you have to come with me, or there could be real problems for you. Because it’ll be the cops. So you have to come with me, and you have to live in a nursing home now.”

 

[Dana]:                            I think the best way to answer that question, is:  to talk about the process, (here) in Virginia. And: For any of you listening, outside of Virginia, just know, that guardianship law is State Dependent. so what we're talking about today, in Virginia, [are] medical case(s) (and cases). So: Say, that, if, Virginia is a really good friend of mine. And, she sees that I'm having some problems, making decisions that might be in my best interest; And, maybe I'm unsafe or maybe I, you know, maybe I have a disability rating (low functioning), and I can't make decisions for myself. For whatever reason. You decide I need a guardian, and she wants to be that person. Y’all [those listening] don't really know. It's because we work for a private nonprofit and that makes us all millionaires. [HAHAHA!] So, then, what she really wants is access to my money. J

 

But, the first thing Virginia does is get a lawyer, and petitions the court for guardianship, so a little bit of vocabulary here:

 

               Virginia, in this case, is the petitioner.

 

                                           Because she's the one that's petitioning the court. I would be: the respondent. So, I'm the one that's going to be responding, that—[Interruption.]

 

 

[Virginia P.]:                  You really should have picked somebody with the less confusing name, than me.

 

 

[Dana T.]:                        Well that's true isn't that- So, I should have chosen Suzanne. J

 

 

[Virginia P.]:                  Now, what you can't see, listeners, is [that] Suzanne and I actually look fairly similar! So, it's not it's not outside the realm of possibility, that Dana will get confused about that.

 

[Dana T.]:                      So: Suzanne then petitions the court to become my guardian. So, once that petition is filed with the court- and it's usually filed with some evidence of my incapacity- which, could be a medical report, or a letter for my doctor, whatever. At that point, the court would schedule a hearing. And they would also appoint what’s (what is) called a guardian ad litem. Another vocabulary word! A guardian ad litem is not a guardian That is (that’s) a very unfortunate use of that word. Because, it's confusing to people—[--] The guardian AD Litem is appointed by the court, they are the ones that are going to make sure I KNOW my rights. They are going to make sure that I'm notified. And then to investigate the case, [they] look at the evidence, and then finally, they're going to write a report. And present it to the court show me.  The court will explain (ie: have) their opinion on whether I need a guardian. Meaning: Do I have to testify or not? And, if I do need a guardian, is Suzanne really the right person for that position? Is she willing, able, capable, (etc.) of doing that? So, once the guardian ad litem has done that, we have a hearing. Now, as the respondent, I have rights. 1. I have the right to be notified, 2. I have the right to know my rights, 3. I have the right to be represented by my own attorney, 4. The guardian ad litem is not my attorney remember, that’s not how it works. 5. So, I have the right to my own I have a right to a jury trial -I've never seen it done- But, I do have the right to ask for a jury trial. 6. I have the right to subpoena witnesses testimony, &, 7. compel evidence. 8. And also I want to talk about having the right to my own attorney. If I can't afford it, then, one will be appointed by the court. […] And because I have the potential of losing a lot of rights. And so, because of that, Virginia wants to make sure that not our Virginia--- the state of Virginia—to make sure that I have the protection of council. And, I have all these other rights that I mentioned. And so, a hearing is held: The judge hears and takes into account all the evidence, and then gives the report over to the Guardian Ad Litem, and there’s a testimony. AND then, the court makes two decisions: The first, (is) the official capacity question, which is: Who's the best person to be my guardian?

 

[Dana T., continued]: And, I want to go back to the guardian of Litem, role. It’s very important that the guardian-- According to Virginia law, is that: he—we’re going to call him a ‘he,’ that HE personally visit me, so he can’t make phone call, can't send me a letter, can't send me an email, he must personally visit me. He must advise me of my rights. He must tell the court whether I want my own attorney or not. He must investigate the evidence and he must consider whether there's a less restrictive alternative such as an advance directives for the decision-making—So, is there something less restricted when he gives me notice of what is happening. [And,] it has to include certain things.

 

                                           And, some of these things have to be in at least 14-point type, and must be bold. That's all they are. One of the statements part of it is warning at the hearing-- you may lose many of your rights-- That has to be told to me, or responded.

 

[Virginia P.]:                  SO, could somebody show up at my door like (they did) for Dianne Wiest, and say: “Hey! I'm Your Guardian! I'm coming to get you,” ??

 

[Dana]:                            No, not in Virginia. In Virginia, being notified of the hearing is what we call jurisdictional, meaning that, if it doesn't happen in the court doesn't have legal authority to appoint the guardian. So, it’s a notice given to me if that does not happen. And then, a guardian cannot legally be appointed. So in that case, I don't think this occurred in Virginia? Was it California?

 

 

[Virginia]:                       I’m assuming Florida. But that might just be my own prejudices. Yeah, I don't know what is(in??) Virginia?

 

 

[Dana]:                            No. That would not happen, because I have to be served noticed in addition to, meaning…a serve notice-- My family members have to be served by, you know, the caretaker, and (then they…) have family members. And the court is very clear, that, in addition to myself, it has to notify three of my- at least three of my immediate family members- of this taking place so that there are notice requirements in Virginia that would help protect against some of what we saw in the movie.

 

[Virginia]:                       Did we miss…. […] You know, what it is, I was thinking is typical guardianship process, by saying: “This is an emergency, & so we're going to do an emergency guardianship hearing,” Like that, here in VA?

 

[Dana]:                            The yeah and I see I seen it happen I refer to it as an expedited hearing so under the law of the court has a hundred and twenty days to have this hearing was petition is filed unless the court for some reason continues it passed a hundred twenty days so that's the general sooner than that when when Suzanne files the petition she may ask for an expedited hearing asking the cord because this is an emergency situation maybe I have medical treatment that needs to be done right away I'm a surgery that needs to be done that I cannot consent to and you know there's no other way to get consent so you know can the court put this on their docket quicker that can certainly happen with that notice requirement is still there the notice requirement does not go away the court can waive the requirement to notify family members in in this situation but not notice to me as the respondent so sometimes in an emergency situation because the entire process of truncated what the court will do is appoint a temporary Guardian so I know things need to be done now and so I'm going to appoint for the next 90 days and I'm with in at 9 today. You know you may ask the court to look at making it permanent or it may be after that 90 day. It really isn't necessary anymore I just lapses that point. But, even if there is an emergency hearing, the court still has to answer those two questions: DOES the person lack capacity, and, if so, [SECOND QUESTION]---  IS SUZANNE THE PERSON [FOR] this job?

 

[Enter, Podcast Producer & Creator, Hannah Setzer]

 

[Hannah S.]:                   Okay, so: When I worked at another organization, they had a guardianship program, at CCC, Catholic Charities. And so, are those (considered) Private Guardians?? Or, what is that?  [What is the difference in the two?]

 

 

[Dana]:                            So, sometimes these cases might be brought by a medical facility because the person(s) in their facility- they- know that they need some sort of medical treatment that needs consent. And, there's nobody available to give consent.  So they're asking the court to appoint someone to be their guardian, and there's no family member available—[then,] they may go to a Professional Guardian, like, you know, the person we saw the movie- Marla was a Professional Guardian. She wasn't a family member. And so, a lot of times these professional guardians are attorneys who are on a list of folks to take these types of cases. Sometimes, they are, they are, organizations that use guardianship for compensation.

 

So that does happen. If, a non-family member gets injured—Okay, so let's talk a little bit about public guardians [vs.] & private Guardians. In Virginia, we have a public guardianship program. And, again, for those of you who are listening in other states, I have no idea whether you have them, or not, maybe; If you listening from another country—(pause)-- I mean, I can hope, right? Then, I don't know, whether, what you guys have either. But, we have a couple of public guardianship programs. And that program is specifically for people who need a guardian. They do not have any family, or close ties, anybody who is able to serve as their guardian. And they’re Indigent they are not able to afford to pay for a guardian.

 

So, in that case of public guardianship, a public guardian can be appointed, so, there's no fee for the individual. The state pays for that service. And, we have… for the guardianship programs throughout the state,… I'm not sure if the whole state is covered, yet, by programs, but we do have several programs throughout the state. And they are monitored, & contracted, with the Department of Aging and Rehab Serv., or DARS. And they are regulated, which is very different from private guardianships. Private guardianships are usually family members that they can also be these private guardianships. And, there are no regulations for them. [Pause. Question.] There's no oversight on them, like there is for the public guardianship program. so that's the difference between public and private.

 

                                           [Pause.]

 

                                           But, there are agencies in Virginia that have public guardianship program so they got that part of their program is regulated by DARS, and monitored, by DARS and then they also have private guardianships that are paid.

 

                                           So, Virginia tells me that I can, am allowed to, mention some (here) by name.  Hannah had mentioned one: Catholic Charities, and the other is Jewish Family Services. They provide both public guardianships, & paid private guardianship.

 

[Virginia]:                       So, why is there no oversight to pay the guardians?

 

 

[Dana]:                            So, the guardians do have to file an annual report. They have to file a report with the DSS office. That is local. That is, you know, where the individual lives every year.

 

                                            The report is not that detailed, but it does, you know, talk about: “How's the person doing?” “Do they still need a guardian?” & “How many times have you seen them?”

 

                                            It is very basic rule: that is is that if it's not for an old there doesn't seem to be any consistent consequence for that. So [then], DSS once they get the report, they're supposed to read it , then submit it to the court, the Circuit Court, to appoint a guardian in the first place. And the problem is, if it doesn't happen, they may get a letter from DSS saying: Hey, you didn't send us the report. DSS has to notify the court anytime, if report is 90 days late, I think. It all comes down to money and personnel. That’s why there are so many guardianships, HOW’S somebody going to regulate them, and monitor them?

 

                                           [If] We're talking about private guardianship, somewhere, talking about family members. The public guardianship, on the other hand, where, they had, like I said they have regulations, they have NO oversight, there's NO [NO] required training or all of the staff they have a ratio so they can have only 20 people per full-time staff in emergency situation they can go up to 25 or they get a waiver to go to 25. But that's it!  No more than that! You know, certainly less than Marla had on her wall in the movie. J J

 

[Dana, con’t.]:               There is no ratio requirement for limitation for private guardians. The Richmond Times-Dispatch did an article on private guardianships, and, the possible exploitation and abuse. And, they had individuals in that article who had over a hundred people that they were serving as guardians for folks.

 

[Suzanne]:                      So, there's no oversight- Once you become a guardian, how do you become a private Guardian if you're not just somebody's family member? how does somebody get into this-- it's hard to say business but it sure feels like a business…?

 

                                           It is absolutely a business. You won't find many private Guardians take many a case where there's no money involved. And I'm not saying that as a negative thing, because, you know, we all need to eat, and, we all need to, you know, pay our bills. But it is a business. And I also want to preface it by saying, probably, too, a lot of people that do it, do it for the right reasons, you know. But how do you become a guardian? You let the court know that you're willing to be a guardian for someone. You let Social Services know, because, they're an agency that offers support for guardianship, just to get the word out there, I guess, that you're, you know, willing to serve in that role.

 

I honestly don't know-- As you know what dLCV tries to do we try to help people avoid this stuff. So, they can get one, (but that they don’t have to.) But, I imagine it's like any business you just network, and get the word out, but they're under private guardianship-- There is no, there's no court requirements, there's no training requirements, there's no ratio, there's, other than the annual report, there's no oversight; So you might as well say there is no oversight. The other thing but the public guardianship program is it—And I'm not like plugging the public guardianship program, here, but the differences are going to start and I wish we had the same oversight and regulations for private and public guardianships. Public guardianships have to be guided by person-centered planning.

 

Virginia Law says that the guardianship always HAS TO take into account the individual preferences, and values, as they're known. but, PUBLIC guardianship, or regulation, they have to use person centered planning, that focuses on the individuals expressed preferences, personal values, and empowers and supports the individual to become as independent as possible. Our law says this, as well. So under Virginia law, the guardianship order, even, must include a statement in it that says that the guardian to the extent possible she'll encourage the pass to the person that's the person who has a guardian personal values of that person and she'll and not unreasonably restricted incapacitated person's ability to communicate with visit or interact with other persons so I think all in all Virginia guardianship law is is pretty good in terms of protecting the individual's rights to be as independent a person as possible. J

 

 

 

[Suzanne]:                      So, you mentioned earlier, Dana: Normally a guardian that that process will start, at least, sometimes, when there is a medical procedure coming up. In the movie that wasn't the case it just sort of seemed like the doctor had decided you know this person is losing their memory a little bit and I think they need a guardian now*…  With that kind of thing happen if there's no, you know, a medical procedure that eminent and just sort of, where, a personal physician would just petition the court for guardianship?

 

 

[Dana]:                            It can happen! As I just said, anybody that’s concerned about, you know, I'm still using me as an example: concerned about my welfare. What happens, I think, if it's not a family member, that then the Department Social Services, through the Adult Protective Services Program- they can go in and do an investigation. And, say that they just determine that my living situation is not safe, and, I'm not capable of making decisions that keep me safe. And so, they may petition the court for guardianship. SO, other than family members, I think APS and medical facilities are probably two of the most common ways of guardianship that gets done. Other than family.

 

[Virginia]:                       Not that it's much better but as somebody who has covered, very recently, one of the state's geriatric hospitals: That's sort of the outcome of that APS referral. from a third-party, that I see a lot.

 

                                           I don't see them ending up with guardians, as well, obviously, because, of my position, but, I [do] see a lot of those people ending up at state hospitals, perhaps, rather than having a guardian, which again, it's not necessarily better, but, you know- There’s different ways than that that can go other than just a direct route to guardianship.

 

 

[Dana]:                            Absolutely! Absolutely! And, it could be that the individual has a medical issue or medication issue they can go to facility whether it's a medical hospital or mental health facility, get that issue resolved, and then go back to living their life, you know. Without having to have a guardian. And, you know, I've mentioned before that [here] at dLCV, we're all about helping people avoid these things and we certainly saw this film, and, we care a lot about why. But, just in case you decide not to watch the movie, and just to sort of expand a little bit on why people would want to avoid this if at all possible….

 

                                           In the legal World guardianship is often referred to as a civil death, because, you lose so many of your civil rights. You lose the right to end on-- this is not an exhaustive list, it is just off the top of my head, the big ones is: You lose the right to vote, you lose the right to make your medical decisions, and how you are supported, you lose that right to decide how your money is spent including, your possessions, as we saw in the movie. You lose the right to get married, to get divorced, the right to write a will, the right to a power of attorney, or an advance directive, the right to sign any contract-- you would never be able to sign a contract for ANYTHING.

 

And, that includes: renting an apartment, buying a house getting a credit card- renting an apartment- I mean anytime you sign your name to something, you do that, because you have to do it if you have a guardian your signature really nothing anymore on a document so the right to drive the right to possess a firearm these are all rights that are lost and like I said this is not exhaustive that's just a few that I can think of off the top of my head. So, guardianship-- we're also not anti-guardianship-- I'm not, and dLCV is not, but we do believe that it should be the last resort, and it should only be used if other less restrictive alternatives are not possible or appropriate.

 

Sorry: I was looking at his guardianship is a school in the toolbox but is the sledgehammer in the toolbox so if you need a sledgehammer to do the job it's in there but if you just need to nail in a nail or screw and a screw the sledgehammer will do the job! It'll get it in there for you but it'll cause a lot of unwanted damage as well. SO, when families are thinking about substitute decision-making for someone who may have limited capacity? Or, may have diminishing past the courthouse? It is – they’re not going anywhere, so they should try some of the alternatives in a less restrictive way. And see if they work

 

[Suzanne]:                      So, you talked about some of the civil rights that were lost one of the big ones that is covered in the movie is that the guardian is able to restrict family members ability to visit her Wards while they are in nursing homes is that, is that realistic?

 

[Dana]:                           

                                           The last part of that is, the Guardian, to the extent possible unreasonably restricted incapacitated person's ability to communicate with visit or interact with other persons that he or she has an established relationship with.

 

 

 

[Suzanne]:                      So, you can't just a guardian can't just willy-nilly say that you know family member can't visit it has to be there but they can reasonably restrict in the movie that you know the main Mafia Guy Peter Dinklage they kept you know they kept saying you just just release her just release you know his mama just released HER from guardianship; Can you just RELEASE somebody from guardianship?

 

 

[Dana]:                            No, not under Virginia law: So, under the law only at the court a judge can appoint a guardian and only a judge can then change that guardianship work for guardianship so the only way she could have gone back to the court with medical documentation that the that Jennifer no longer needed a guardian and and she could have said my opinion she no longer needs a guardian in with this judge you know he would take her word for it but no a guardian can't just say Okay this person doesn't need a guardian anymore I'm going to release her from guardianship that can't happen.

 

[Virginia]:                       Yeah, I think that's something that-- we when we are answering family members questioned-- something that at least I bring up a lot is: You know, this may feel like something that you need now, but you need to realize that it's very expensive and very permanent and if you want to try to resolve it that is also expensive and very time-consuming process, and you have to hire attorneys and BLEH! (Meh.)

 

[Dana]:                             Anytime you can keep attorney’s OUT OF YOUR LIFE, it is just a good day because there is a mechanism in the law to modify it, or to terminate it; But, it does require going back to court. And, that is something that dLCV sometimes assists people with. If their one person isn’t able to provide.

 

                                           If they're on the person is able to present evidence that they no longer need a guardian..

 

                                           But, you know, if you don't have somebody like us to take that sort of case that I know we're not here to talk about advance directives but I will say that that one way to avoid the sort of thing happening is to plan ahead is to have a plan in place! Have an advance directive; name somebody that you want to make decisions for you, if that time ever comes, when you can't do so.

 

PUT plans into place, for periods of future and capacity, so that you're not in, a, you know, either a crisis situation, or you're not in a situation where your capacity has gotten to the point where you can no longer do these things. So, we all need to think about that it doesn't matter how young you are or how healthy you are you know shopping in an incident which I think we certainly have learned in the last year and you know we need to be prepared for those things. We don't like to think about it, but, we, you know if the time comes and somebody needs to make a decision for us, when we can't, you know, that's too late-- we need to think about these things ahead of time and that's how we can avoid having what happened to the movie.

 

 

[Virginia]:                       Well, on that note: J Dana we will have you back very soon, NAY, I immediately, J to talk about advance directives and how people make those but in the meantime, THANK YOU, so much, for subjecting yourself to this extremely disturbing movie for US.

 

[Suzanne]:                      Thank you, Dana.

 

[Dana]:                            Thank you, guys. It's always fun to talk to you guys!

 

 

[Suzanne]:                      Thank you for coming we are always happy to have you on. And we'll see you for the advance directives addition of Rights here, Rights now! And now, a dLCV HIGHLIGHT.

 

Did you know that a brain injury, in some cases, can also be a developmental disability? This is important because Virginia offers a number of helpful services, including Medicaid waiver services, to people with developmental disabilities. To learn more about this topic, check out our latest brain injury fact sheet online at www.dLCV.org/tbi!

 

 

 

[Suzanne]:                      We want to thank Dana again, for, like we said earlier, breaking herself in order to do this! Um. If you haven't seen the film yet and are interested just a little warning that it can be rough to watch. But, not as rough to talk about when you're talking about it with intelligent and kind people like, Dana. So, I hope you learned that some good stuff today and maybe a little bit less scared—Maybe, appropriately scared!

 

[Virginia]:                       Appropriately scared. And, really trying to listen to her/our upcoming episode on advance directives, to stop this from happening!

 

[Suzanne]:                      Exactly! That's a great way to put it! Thank you all for listening to this episode of Rights Here, Rights Now, brought to you by the disability Law Center of Virginia. We are available on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review.

 

[Virginia]:                       If you need assistance, or want more information about dLCV, and what we do, visit us online at www.dlcv.org.

 

[Suzanne]:                      Follow us on Twitter at disability law VA insurance with your friends.

 

[Virginia]:                       Until next time, I'm Virginia Pharis.

 

[Suzanne]:                      And, I’m Suzanne Herbst. And this has been: Rights Here…

 

[Virginia]:                       Rights Now!

 

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