Transcript of “Rights Here, Rights Now –
Episode 35 Service Animals with Dana Traynham
Produced by the disAbility Law Center of Virginia.
[INTRO]: The information provided on this podcast does not, and is not intended to, constitute legal advice. Instead, all information, content and materials available are for general informational purposes only.
[Enter host, Valerie Jones.]
[Valerie]: Welcome to Rights Here, Rights Now!- a podcast about disability advocacy and activism. I'm your Advocate host, Valerie (Jones)!
[Enter host, Virginia Pharis.]
[Virginia]: And I'm your Advocate host, Virginia!
[Valerie]: Every two weeks we dig into to relevant issues, current events, and avenues for self-advocacy.
[Virginia]: ‘Cause someone has to.
[Valerie]: And it might as well be us.
This podcast is produced and edited by the disAbility Law Center of Virginia, the Commonwealth’s protection and advocacy agency for disability rights.
[Enter,
hosts Virginia Pharis & Valerie Jones]
[Virginia]: So, Valerie, we have a much
asked for episode today! We're going to be talking about service animals,
emotional support animals, difference between those. And, we're going to be
talking to Dana Traynham again. Who’s been on a
couple of our podcasts before! Before jump in, let's check out disability in
the news.
[NARRATOR]: Zoom is committing to continuing
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already provides manual closed captioning, screen reader support, and several
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[Virginia]: Welcome back
to the podcast: Staff Attorney Dana Traynam who is
just- your hero & mine. She is back with us this week, to talk about
service animals. Is this you know, are service animals in the area that you
usually work in here at dLCV??
[Enter,
return guest & Staff Attorney, Dana Traynham]
[Dana]: It hasn't been an area
that I worked a lot in; But, I recently did some research so that I could
update our fair housing page. And, (as) I really delved into the topic-- It's,
it's so common for me to do this (pause). I'll go to the research one issue,
and, the next thing you know, five hours later- you know- I have delved into it
*way* deeper than I ever started out to! And, that's part of what happened with
service animals, & assistance animals, in (the more) general term. So I
wanted to come on in and share what I learned. And, it's very timely because
something is going to change next week, as far as assistance animals go, so
we'll get into that later and so I thought it was very timely to talk about
this issue.
[Valerie]: Could you help me with this
question? So, I heard names for animals that assist people with disabilities:
name such as service animal, assistant animal, emotional support animal,
therapy dog, and others. Are they all the same?
[Dana]:
Yes, I know. And, it's very important that we look at the language that we use
when we were talking about assistance animals! So let's go down the list.
Assistance animals- that's a very general term- I'm including all of the
different types of assistance that dogs **may provide** to people with
disabilities. That would include all of those things phrases that you just
mentioned! The reason that we have different definitions- and different terms-
is because laws that pertain to people with disabilities, Define things
differently. So, the main three laws that we have that deal with service
animals and assistance animals is (are): the Americans with Disabilities Act,
the Fair Housing Act, and then, under the rules and regulations that pertain to
airline travel.
[Dana, con’t.]: Each one of them
look at these animals differently. The Americans with Disabilities Act has a
very strict definition of a service dog. And I say service dog because
the ADA says, that a service animal is a dog who is
specifically trained to provide a service or do a task for person with a
disability; The ADA changed a few years ago to make that very strict
definition of a service animal. Whereas, it used to be pretty much open the
other types of animals. But they've limited it to dogs. I will say they allow
service miniature horses in very rare circumstances, but for the most
part the ADA only refers to dogs who are specifically
trained, to do something for person with a disability. And, if you look
at the fair housing act, it's much more broad. It’s a
broader definition of assistance animal. The FHA obviously covers housing
issues, where we live- it says that they still- that we still- recognize things
like emotional support animals and service animals that are animals other
than dogs.
So when I'm talking
about service dog I'm saying a very narrow definition of what that means under
the Americans with Disabilities Act. Now, when I'm talking about assistance
animal, or emotional support animal, that's the broader definition that you
find within the Fair Housing Act. Now, the one that is changing is the
law that in the regulations and rules relating to airline travel Now that won’t be until next week. They have had more of the
fair housing type definition of it- So, you can take emotional support animals
on a plane. & you can have service animals other than dogs as of the 21st
of this month… next week.
They will adopt the ADA definition of service dog. So, I don't know if you guys
have seen over the last few years? The airline industry has really been
struggling with emotional support animals. [They’ve] included, “Dexter, the
support peacock”. They've had-someone came in with a full-size pig? Someone
else came on with a turkey. Some of these animals really are
not trained. They were not trained animals. they
made mess on the plane, they bit passengers & airline personnel,-- and it
really got to the point where it had become unruly. And unfortunately-
what we're seeing now, though, is that the airline industry or the Department
of Transportation, has gone from one extreme to the other. Okay, so, first
they’re allowing pretty much anything! And now they’re going to another extreme
where they’re saying only dogs.
I mean, I love to fly, but I know that there are people that
don’t. And it’s very stressful! And, having an emotional support animal, that
is truly an emotional support animal,
could be very helpful to that person. And
it may mean the difference between flying and not flying, for that person. Some
of the other terms- therapy dogs, disaster dogs, search-and-rescue dogs- they
are assistance animals- they do assist people, sometimes, people with
disabilities, sometimes not, in
various situations (but), they
are not service animals. When you're talking about a service animal, you
have to remember: that animal is specifically trained
to do a task for a person with a disability, & a service for a particular
individual, with a disability. So, a therapy dog could go to a
Children's Hospital in Seattle, but it isn’t a service dog. Sooo did I just, does is that
totally confuse the issue even more, or…? (Pause.)
[Virginia]: Yeah, I think it is helping.
That can give the, sort of a good, and broad basis of understanding. You know, forgive us if we you know start
asking questions that have already been answered, and we have to synthesize a little
bit but you know that's that's three laws and we have
to synthesize a little bit.. (pause). So talking about
(categories) it for a second. It sounds like there are two categories that come
up,[…] service animals, which are defined, in a
very clear way, and emotional support animals, which are not. Why does the difference
ultimately
matter?
[Dana]: Because it dictates
where that animal can go. So if an individual with a disability has a service
dog, and that dog qualifies as a service dog, and that individual qualifies as
an individual with a disability, then that dog can go anywhere the individual
goes. so anywhere that you know has public access.
Into restaurants. Into stores. Even if there’s a sign that says, “No Dogs Allowed.”
[Valerie]:
And, have there been any cases throughout the time where this has been challenged? Where they couldn't take it in? &
individual had to challenge the ruling?? Has there been any case over time,
or do you know of?
[Dana]:
So, I'm going to go back & [use the] to the terminology of service animal
versus assistance animal. Because only a service dog goes [gets to go] into a
public place. And, see, the terminology- it gets a little tricky. So, there
have certainly been cases where individuals have been
challenged, about whether they can bring their service animal into a
public place. We see that at DLCV We still see that things like, “Well, there's
somebody else here, who is allergic to dogs, so you can't bring your dog in,”
& we've seen that in school systems. Where people- children- with
disabilities have taken their service animal, and then they say, “Well, there's
another kid in the classroom is who has an allergy. So, the dog can't come.”
Or, “There's another child in the class, that is afraid of dogs, and so the
animal is not allowed. But, those cases are, by and large, not successful.
and, on plane, for example, the rule says that the
individual who needs the service animal takes priority over any other
disability, that would say, the service animal can't be there- Such as an
allergy. The airline has to give priority to the individual with a service dog
and then somehow, accommodate the individual with the allergy, somehow,…[…] weather that's putting them in another section of the
plane, or, (providing them service) and giving (give) them a ticket to another
flight. But, that's not a reason to deny a service dog. And so, when you
are looking under, the rights (that can’t be denied)
for a service dog, there are a lot of rights that are protected for that
animal in that individual with a disability to have that animal with them. [Pause]
[Valerie]:
Thanks, Dana, that’s good to know.
[Virginia]:
Yeah, so you know…You've already,..you've
already invoked, you know, my previous mascot. (LOL!) It was, like, 2015,
“Jeremy emotional support Peacock,” I can't remember exactly what his name was!
But, you know, you’ve still […]you've seen those
stories in the news. (And) I've seen this very clearly, where, people who were
using animals, other than dogs, or miniature horses, and, in rare
events. Which, are now under the only things that are being
considered as emotional support animals. With this being the case, with
this new shift happening, you know, if - (say) you had an animal that was being
used for emotional support, previously- what should they expect now that the
law has changed?
[Dana]:
Service animals now are only legally recognized, & required to be
recognized under the FHA. So if you're looking at housing situations, even
though, you know that the Department of Transportation made it very clear,
that, airlines can still allow emotional support animals. The difference is
the rules no longer require the airline to allow it. So, airlines can make
their own rules, that are less strict- than the
Department of Transportation. So, (then) that will be an airline by airline decision.
I kind of think that most Airlines will go along with the Department of
Transportation, definition, but I'm not sure. And so, if, someone has an
emotional support animal, and, they are going to fly after January 21st, (then)
they may want to look at different airlines, to see if they have different
rules for emotional support animals. And so, you know, small animals that can
fit in the cabin of a plane, (or,) within the passenger’s space, or who are allowed on the plane…whether or not the issue, is payment.
So, like, for example, I was looking into, [..] there is an airline that
allows,…you know, me to take my small dog who can fit in a carrier, so,
Virginia much like Stuart, maybe, could go on a plane, but you'd have to
pay about $125 to allow that to happen. Whereas, if Stewart were a service dog,
there would be no fee. You’d be allowed to take Stewart on the plane and he be
allowed to sit on your lap and provide the services he provides for you at no
cost, no extra cost. And, that's where things kind of got out of hand, I think,
on planes. Because that’s when you're already looking to pay in hundreds of
dollars for your own ticket. You know. And, and, I'm, I'm, going to tell
you, I am not in any way judging, “Dexter the Peacock,” or, you know, The Pig,
or, you know, (Virginia: Oh, Dexter!) Yes, & unfortunately, he has
moved on. He has crossed the Rainbow Bridge!
[Virginia]:
Jeremy would be a good name for peacock, you know.
[Dana]:
Yes, I’ll keep that in mind, if I ever choose to get one. But, you can imagine,
I’m a large woman, and I if I sit in a plane seat, [&] there ain't much room…between me, and the next person. So, if
we’re talking, “Dexter the Peacock,” or, a full-sized pig, you can imagine, how
that disrupts the flow of air travel. And, so, I think airlines, and, the
Department of transportation felt like they had to do something. Unfortunately,
they went way to the other extreme.
[Virginia]:
Also, just, so, this does make sense for listeners, at home. Dear listeners:
Steward is my 9 lb Chihuahua, with a traumatic brain
injury. We love him very much! He is, the “Unofficial Mascot,” of DLCV, and is
on all of our Zoom calls. And, is, sort of a, “podcast support animal,” although
he does not provide a service & has not been trained in any way.
[Dana]:
I just happened to think about this, so, as, (and) I want to mention it. So,
there's an emotional support animal classification, which we now know is only really recognized in Fair Housing Law. But, there's
also something called a psychiatric service dog. And that is a dog who has been specifically trained to provide a service for a
person with a disability- in this case a person with mental illness. So, a psychiatric
service dog, for example could do things like recognize when a person is about
to have a panic attack. And, calm that person down. They've
been trained to do that. An emotional support animal doesn't have to be trained; -they provide their service just by being who
they are- not by being trained! But, a psychiatric service dog, is specifically trained, to assist a person with mental
illness. That is different from an emotional support animal. Ad. that psychiatric service dog, would be recognized under the
Americans with Disabilities Act, as a (an actual) service dog. J
[Valerie]:
That is so good to know, Dana. Thank you. I've often seen service animals
wearing signs or a vest, that says, “Please do not pet,” Why can't I pet a
service animal? Why is this always the case? Is this always the case
and what if the service animal isn't wearing a sign, (or a vest)?
[Dana]:
So, if a service animal is wearing their vest, it means that they are on duty. They
are on the job! And, their job, often requires them to be totally in tune with
their handler- the person with a disability. They need to be- totally-
their attention needs to be totally on that person- with a disability-
so that they can provide the service that they've been trained to provide. If,
we pet the dog, play with the dog, talk to the dog, then we are taking the
attention AWAY from the person with a disability. And, it could be disastrous.
I mean, if, that dog is trying to do something that is very important for that
person with disability…like, provide mobility support, and, we take that the
animal’s attention away from the individual, it could you know, have
consequences. When taking off the vest(s), then, the animal’s off duty-
the animal is on break. We once had an employee at our agency, who was blind,
and, she had a guide dog named Glaze, & it was so great. When, you know,
he, had several breaks during the day, and he knew; I can't even remember if it
was a he or a she. They (She) knew it was breaktime. And she’d go, ripping down the hall, & some
of us would have balls that we throw down the hall, and, then it was break time
for us too because we could play with blazing and pet her and everything, but,
when, that that harness of hers went back on, that was it. I mean, we didn't
talk to Glaze; we didn't do any of that. And, I have to say: when I go to
conferences with a lot of people with disabilities and there are service
animals there- it’s hard! Cuz (Because) I'm a
dog person! And it's hard! You know, you can't get into it. You really- you
should not talk to them, you should not make any contact with them. (Or
anything!)
[Valerie]:
Certainly. Thank you for that bit of information, Dana.
[Virginia]:
Yeah,
I think you brought up really good point. I think of people don't… think about
it… A lot of people are aware that they probably shouldn't touch a service
animal while it's working. I don't think a lot of people are aware that they
shouldn't do the like, “Who's a good boy? Who's a good boy?.
Well [because] that service animal is working. Because, they are, in fact,
being “a very good boy!” But you know there's a time and a place to let them
know that. I would just add, you know, while most dogs are trained to know the
vest on/vest off, mentality- And it’s (is) probably always best to err on the
side of the animal’s owner. And, always ask for permission, before talking to,
OR heading that animal. Because we just never know is that vest on? Or is it
off? It’s hard to say!
[Dana]:
Well, you know, that’s…that’s
good practice for you know, any animal. I teach my two year old that!
You know. You don't touch anybody's dog without asking permission. But, it's
even more important for a service dog.
[Virginia]:
So, for a service dog, do you write a pet deposit? Does someone with a service
animal have to pay that fee??
[Dana]:
So: for the most part, no. Because a service animal’s not a pet. So any rules
that are for pets, -does not apply- to a service dog. Or, [to] any type of
assistance animal. The issue gets to be, WHEN it goes beyond what we're talking
about today. Because it gets into some legal stuff. That means when the housing
provider is covered under, & is obligated by, the
Fair Housing Act (FHA). And there are some exceptions. Some landlords are not
obligated under the Fair Housing Act. But for the most part, if your living in an apartment building, and they have a pet
deposit, or they have a monthly pet fee, then, [no] you do not have to pay
that, (for) a service dog, or a emotional support
animal. As long as you have asked for that reasonable accommodation. That’s
what it is to have a service animal.
[Virginia]:
Thank you. So, I know you said apartment complexes. What if we're talking
about, you know, somebody who is leasing, or renting, from a private owner, or
it's like you know, a Craigslist situation? Or, somebody just, you know, is
renting out of the second half of the duplex, or something? Does the law still
apply then in terms of deposits of denying someone access based on whether [or
not] they have a service animal?
[Dana]:
So, [it is] just like we said with planes: Anybody can allow, you know
now, a service dog, or, allow an assistance animal; but, in order to be protected,
by one of these laws- the individual has to be obligated by that law-
meaning (that) they don't meet one of the exceptions. And one of the
exceptions is an individual that runs a private house, if they have, I think
it's less than 4, and they don't use a broker to advertise, or rent, their
establishment, their home, if it is a duplex- in that the owner lives on the
other side- there are exceptions. And then that- that- those exceptions
say that the landlord does not have to follow the Fair Housing Act Rules. They
still could allow the service animal, BUT, it just means that the individual
doesn't have federal law behind them. So, it can get a little confusing and *maybe*
we need to do a podcast on Fair Housing.
[Dana, con’t]:
And,
so, [that’s the] in the the ins-and-outs of that. But
that gets a little bit -little bit- straighter, of what we're talking about
today. So, if someone has lived at a residence, and they've
been diagnosed with depression, or another mental illness, &, the
doctor requires them to have a service dog. (Pause), & the property under
no circumstances allows animals, the landlord would [have to] say something
like: they would have [tricked?] them. If they brought an animal into the
residence. It's just cause (because) to take this individual to court- (pause),
well, again, if,-if, the place- if- the owner of the property is obligated
under the Fair Housing Act, then they have to allow a service dog or an
emotional support animal. [Period.] If it is requested as a reasonable
accommodation, by a person with a disability. So, yes, that would be a good
case to (too), you can either take a case to court, or, you can file a fair
housing complaint against them. Sounds like we really need to do a podcast fair
housing complaint for you could file a lawsuit on that because if they are in
fact required to follow the rules!
[Valerie]: I hope we do have a fair housing act to talk as done so I would love
to find out more information about this so hopefully someone’s listening! […]
(Pause.)
.
[Virginia]:
So, talking about service animals specifically that are
trained to do a specific service…a specific task... First of all, how
does the person with the disability prove that they're, you know prove is in
heavy air quotes that there is an animal? And, what should they have to do?
[Dana]:
That does come up. So, there are online companies now that you can pay a fee to
do this…and, they will send you a letter that says that ‘some service animal is
certified,’ as a service animal. It's really not worth (what) the paper that it's written on. There is a certification requirement for
service animals. And, from what I understand, from these online companies,
which (where it) is required to fill out a questionnaire. And then, you know,
they don't require any proof that the animals been trained, or that you have a
disability, or anything like that.
So, what is required under the ADA, that we're
talking about, is for a service dog- the animal has to be specifically
trained. That doesn't mean it has to be trained by an organization, you know,
the dog can be trained by the individual with a disability,
it can be trained by a family member, can be trained by anybody- But the dog
has to be specifically trained to perform a task for that individual. So,
that's how it's different from an emotional support animal that doesn't
necessarily have any training at all. But, a service dog does have to have some
sort of training. So that it can provide the task, (for that person.)
So, if the dog picks up items from the floor,
that the individual cannot pick up, that dog has to be trained to do that.
Or, if the dog opens the refrigerator, gets a bottle of water, the dog has to be trained in order to do that. And so, that's the
requirement. The dog is specifically trained to do a
task, for the individual, & then the individual also has to have a disability
in order to have a service dog. And (for) emotional support animals, and the
requirements for that varies depending on the situation. All the laws say that
if an individual has a visible, an obvious disability, then no more proof is needed. So if the individual is using a wheelchair for
mobility, if they're obviously blind or deaf, or anything that we can
physically see, then, they don't have to provide any other proof of disability.
However, if the disability is not obvious, (if) it's not visible then they have
to show proof of disability. BUT, that (then) they don't have to disclose their
diagnosis. They don't have to disclose their medical records. It would (just)
be a simple sentence from a doctor. On the doctors
letterhead: “Dana has a disability and because of this disability, she needs a
service animal.”
And so, (as well): The property, owner or the or the
establishment owner can ask what tasks that animal provides, but, they, they
can't require a (any) certification. Because it's not required. So, there is
some proof, there that has to be, [and we’ve seen that], at times. But it's not- (and) it should not be so prohibitive that the
individual, you know, can’t meet the requirements [that they need.] And at dLCV we have found (& there have been cases) that (they
need the proof of??) you know, receiving SSI or SSDI disability in order to
receive those benefits (of that, for a service dog).
[Valerie]: So, many
questions, so many questions! Okay, so finally, Dana I (we), would like to say
thank you first of all, and before I ask this last question It
has been tremendous having you on here! And can you let us know where listeners
can find out more information on service and assistance animals information on
that?
[Dana]: Right now it’s on our webpage,
it's there right now. It’s under the fair housing page, under resources, on
dlcv.org. Go to resources, and then Fair Housing. I think, after this podcast,
and the other information that we have, we may actually be developing an
assistance animal page under resources so we can put all these things under
(just) one heading.
You can also go to www.ada.gov; It has a page on assistance animals with frequently asked
questions. You can also go to HUD. www.hud.gov.
It also has information on service animals. And I think that probably provides
information on that. And, just know that the Airline Access Act & the
Department of Transportation rules, (will) follow the Ada from next week
(forward.)
[Virginia]:
Dana,
you’re the hero we need right now! Thank you so much.
[Valerie]: Thank you so much, Dana,
for all of your information. Even though you're not an expert on this topic but
thank you so much for all the research you put into this it's greatly
appreciated! It’s always a pleasure having you!
[Dana]:
Thank you guys; thank you very much and thanks for having me again!
[Valerie]:
And
now, a dLCV highlight!
[NARRATOR]: Patrick is quadriplegic and spends his days in his
electric wheelchair . He recently got a new
wheelchair. The wheelchair is so big it was not getting through his
door at his home very well. This then meant his time in the community was
very limited. He could not go to the grocery store, be with his friends,
or most importantly look for work. Patrick called dLCV
to ask for our assistance in getting his wheelchair repaired. He said the company where the wheelchair came from was not
returning his calls. dLCV
contacted the company to ask about the wheelchair adjustments. The
company agreed to meet with Patrick and assess the issue. After they met
with Patrick, they agreed to replace his wheelchair. Now because of one
phone call to dLCV, Patrick can now move about his
community and prepare to go to work with his own independence.
[Valerie]:
Thank you (thanks) again to Dana for being willing to come in and talk to us
about that. I think that the next couple months with (all) these legal changes,
are going to be really interesting for the disability community! we might- might further down the road, have, you know, an
update episode, or something along those lines. And I needed to find more about
the services [of special needs animals] in the housing part of this a whole
umbrella. It'll be way more interesting to find out information on that.
[Virginia]: Yeah,
it's just… There's a lot of facets, and it's really complicated so as always,
if anybody has any questions about that stuff, if anybody is facing a service
animal, or a denial issue, they are are welcome to
call dLCV for assistance.
[Valerie]: Great
to know! J Thank you all for listening to this episode of: Rights Here, Rights
Now! brought to you by the disAbility
Law Center of Virginia. We're available on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever
you get your podcasts. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review!
[Virginia]:
If
you need assistance or want more information about dlcv,
and what we do, visit us online, at dlcv.org
[Valerie]:
Or,
follow us on Twitter at @disAbilityLawVa,
and share us with your friends.
[Virginia]:
Until next time, I’m Virginia
[Valerie]: And I’m Valerie.
[Virginia]:
And this has been: Rights Here.
[Valerie]:
Rights
Now!
***[End of Transcriptions]***