Transcript of “Rights Here, Rights Now - Episode : “All About the Civil Commitment Process in Virginia” produced by the disAbility Law Center of Virginia.                                                            

[NARRATOR]: The information provided on this podcast does not, and is not intended to, constitute legal advice. Instead, all information, content and materials available are for general informational purposes only.

[Intro Music: Light rhythmic percussion beats, finger snaps & hand claps]

[VIRGINIA]: Welcome to Rights Here, Rights Now: The podcast about disability, advocacy, and activism. I’m your Advocate Host, Virginia Pharis -

[SUZANNE]: and I’m your Advocate Guest Host Suzanne H

[VIRGINIA]: Every two weeks, we dig into relevant issues, current events, and avenues for self-advocacy -

[SUZANNE]: ‘cause someone has to - 

[VIRGINIA]: It might as well be us!

[SUZANNE]: This podcast is produced by the disAbility Law Center of Virginia, the Commonwealth’s protection and advocacy agency for disability rights. Find out more at www.dlcv.org

[VIRGINIA]: So Suzanne thank you so much for joining me in the studio today.

[SUZANNE]: Thank you, I’m so excited to be here! 

[VIRGINIA]: Well we have you here guest hosting it up with us because in a shocking turn of events our guest expert for this episode is our usual advocate cohost Ms. Ren Faszewski. That’s right. We will be talking about kind of a serious topic today. We’ll be talking about the TDO and ECO process. We’ll be getting into what that all means in a minute but I just wanted to put out a soft content warning. We’re not going to be getting into anything really upsetting today but if you have some sensitivities on hearing about the involuntarily commitment process this might not be the episode for you and that’s fine and you can join us again next week. But in the meantime, let’s check out disAbility in the News: 

Last week the U.S. Senate unanimously approved a bill known as the Lifespan Respite Care Reauthorization Act of 2019. This bill authorizes 50 million dollars over the next five years for community-based respite care services across the country. The federal government has provided grants to 37 states along with Washington DC through the respite care program to streamline delivery of services, coordinate resources, and offer trainings to respite providers and family caregivers. There are an estimated 45 million family caregivers across the United States and they provide billions of uncompensated care every year. Respite care is essential to caregivers as it helps to reduce mental and physical health and stress issues caregivers often face. The House of Representatives passed a similar bill last summer and the two bills are currently being reconciled before legislation moves on to the president. Find out more at www.disabilityscoop.com This has been disability in the news.

[VIRGINIA]: Ren, hello and thank you for joining us in the studio but in a slightly different chair than usual. 

[REN]: It is a slightly different chair and I’m a little uncomfortable with it because I’m now so used to my place but I do know things too so this will be exciting for me. 

[SUZANNE]: Does it feel weird to have someone else in your chair? You’re just starting at me with jealousy. 

[REN]: Yeah there’s little bit of judgement there but you’re doing great Suzanne! 

[SUZANNE]: Thank you I need that encouragement. 

[VIRGINIA]: So the TDO and ECO process is a lot of letters. 

[REN]: It is a lot of letters! We’ll get down to the letters. This is how its most commonly known. The entire process is the civil commitment process. But when you talk to people that are sort of connected to it TDO and ECO are the ones that come up in terms of how they describe it. So lets first talk about the TDO that’s the Temporary Detention Order. This is a legal order in which someone is committed for immediate hospitalization for a 72-hour period on an involuntary basis. 

[VIRGINIA]: Yeah that’s kind of the key to this entire process that we’ll be talking about today. That it’s the involuntary commitment process. 

[REN]: The Eco is the Emergency Custody order. This is an order by a Magistrate in which police are able to put somebody into custody in order to get them evaluated for the involuntary commitment process. So those are the letters (group laugh) that most people know about as far as the process. 

[SUZANNE]: So other than what it means in a very broad sense what’s the nitty gritty? Let’s start chronologically, what starts this process? 

[REN]: To begin this process in any kind of way there needs to be some kind of psychiatric crisis going on. An individual need to be either dealing with really intense mental health symptoms that are placing them at harms risk for hurting themselves or others or making it very difficult for them to take care of themselves. The psychiatric crisis is the key here. If someone is having mental health symptoms but they’re still able to go to work, or they’re still able to feed themselves, or they’re struggling but aren’t in imminent danger they shouldn’t be connected in this process what so ever. In terms of typical lay people, let’s say you have a friend who is really struggling and they start saying they’re going to hurt themselves and you want to help them.

This is a very typical way for the initiation of this process is by calling 911. So, you call 911 and say, “I have a friend I’m really worried about their safety” and the best way to do this is to recommend specifically for a crisis intervention trained officer or CIT. These are officers that are specifically trained to respond to mental health crises and to have de-escalation techniques to work with people who are struggling with mental health, or even with developmental disabilities and things of that nature. 

[VIRGINIA]: Ok important question about that, do every city and county have CIT trained officers? 

[REN]: They do not. I believe Richmond and some of the bigger counties have really large population of officers who have been trained. But once you get further out from that you start to see less and less and less. And that’s something that the state is sort of working on but it’s not something that is available everywhere yet. But its always a good thing to ask in case you don’t know.

[SUZANNE]: Though as someone from south west Virginia I feel the need to point out that I think it started in Blacksburg, the CIT program. 

[REN AND VIRGINIA]: Oh! 

[SUZANNE]: Shout out to my south west Virginia folks. 

[REN]: So once you’ve called 911 and an officer is on the scene, that officer can make the determination if somebody needs to be evaluated right away. 

[VIRGINIA]: Now if someone had a history with law enforcement where it wouldn’t necessarily be the best idea to call law enforcement is there anyone else that a loved one could call if they were concerned? 

[SUZANNE]: You can always call... if you’re aware of this individual’s record, like if they already have a psychiatrist, or they’re already connected to services, it’s always great to see if you can work with that individual to see if you can get them to agree to voluntary stuff. So you know you can contact their psychiatrist. You can also call the community services board crisis line. Every CSB has a crisis line and you can call them. They might be the ones who get in contact with the police. They might say you can drive them down straight to us. I just mention the police officer route as that’s one of the common ways this process gets initiated. 

[SUZANNE]: If we’re being honest that’s probably how most people begin their interaction with this process. 

[REN]: As far as the ECO is concerned, an officer can come on the scene and say hey this person really needs to be evaluated. And that person may refuse or may not be able to consent. Let’s say if they’re really really sick and they’re just not able to make those kinds of decisions in that moment. That officer would issue what is called a paperless ECO. That means there’s no actual piece of paper right there with the magistrate’s signature saying you can put this person in custody. But the police have that authority to say I think this person needs to be taken in for evaluation. An individual can call for an ECO directly to the magistrate and get a paper ECO. That’s not nearly as typical because obviously this would be in a crisis situation but that is an avenue that has occurred. 

[VIRGINIA]: So you’re saying “magistrate”. For those of us who aren’t as familiar with that term, what is a magistrate? 

[REN]: A magistrate is a local independent judicial officer. They make decisions in hearings on minor crime stuff as well as for civil commitment cases. So they’re the ones who write off on Emergency Custody Orders. They’re the ones who write off on Temporary Detention Orders and eventually that moves people through the process. So they’re the ones who actually stamp their signature on the piece of paper saying this if what’s going to happen. So once an ECO is in place this initiates an 8 hour window. So in this 8 hours a person has to be evaluated by a CSB and at the end of that 8 hours the ECO expires. They can no longer be in custody because of like civil rights and stuff -

[SUZANNE AND VIRGINIA]: Yep always good to have! (group laugh) 

[REN]: You can’t just keep people in custody for a really long time. I’m Virginia right now it’s 8 hours. It was previously 6 but in 2014, I want to say, they extended it. 

[VIRGINIA]: When you say “in custody” what does that mean? Are we talking in custody like for police? 

[REN]: What it means is you’re not arrested for a crime but that the police are able to keep you within their, again custody, within their... 

[VIRGINIA]: Sort of like the police are responsible for you for that period of time. 

[REN]: Right, so they’re responsible for you. It can mean that you are handcuffed. That’s something that mental health professionals are having a conversation with law enforcement about because obviously that’s very traumatizing. Typically in my experience, prior to be an advocate, I have seen handcuffs in transportation. So when an officer has an ECO and you’re putting an individual in a police car then sometimes you see handcuffs in place until you get to either the emergency room or the CSB crisis center.

There is a space in the ECO as well as in the TDO order that a magistrate can authorize the use of alternative transportation but right now it’s kind of used far and few between. There’s not really a readily accessible service for that. It’s usually like a family member or somebody like that who would be involved in that.

[SUZANNE]: You don’t have explicit right to not be handcuffed in this process but you know if you’re somebody who is experiencing this and you’re interfacing with the police, if you have a trauma history, if it’s going to be detrimental to you to put you in handcuffs, let them know that. They’re not trying to make things worse. 

[REN]: Right and again this is part of that ongoing conversation about CIT trained officers because they’re much more aware of these nuances. There’s also specifically for people with developmental disabilities, the REACH program. It’s trying to be utilized during these points of time because using REACH can also help mitigate or help explain what’s going on with the individual like why they might be acting a certain way. It won’t change the fact that the person is going to be evaluated but can provide some additional support. 

[SUZANNE]: And just for our listeners who might not have that background just to be totally clear REACH is the statewide crisis response system for people with intellectual and developmental disabilities.

[REN]: For an Emergency Custody Order a magistrate can’t just say boom, I’ll slap you with one just cause I feel like it. You do have to meet certain criteria. The person has to have a mental illness or there has to be a substantial likelihood that as a result of that mental illness that they would cause serious physical harm to themselves or others or suffer serious harm due to the lack of capacity to protect themselves from harm. The person also is in need of hospitalization or treatment and the person is unwilling to volunteer or is incapable of volunteering for treatment.

All of those things have to be there in order for the ECO to be granted. So again just because you have a mental illness doesn’t mean you’re going to meet this criteria. You might be really sick but you then might want to voluntarily go to a hospital or to an outpatient treatment center then all of this isn’t necessary. All of these things have to be in place for this order to be granted. 

[VIRGINIA]: It’s also worth saying that if somebody is displaying dangerous behavior or self-harming behaviors and they don’t necessarily have a diagnosis on the books of a mental illness that doesn’t mean that they can not be subject to an ECO. 

[REN]: Right, if there is evidence to believe that this is something that is going on with a mental health condition or some sort of developmental disability, something of that nature, again that understanding is what informs sort of that decision. So let’s talk about the TDO. 

[VIRGINIA AND SUZANNE]: The TDO, is it time? You’ve told us all about the ECO let’s get the TDO party started. 

[REN]: Well right before the TDO, once the ECO is granted you’re taken to be evaluated. This is what determines if the TDO happens.  So you are evaluated by a representative from the community services board. This evaluation is typically called a pre screening and the person called a pre screener. That’s the language you’ll really here. What they do is they evaluate whether you are in need of treatment and whether that treatment needs to be involuntary. There are kind of the same conditions that an ECO needs are the same conditions that a TDO needs to meet. Again that person needs to have some sort of mental health condition or the likelihood of a mental health condition.

Because of this condition there is a risk of them hurting themselves or others or that they’re going to suffer harm due to inability to care for themselves. What we see a lot of in the community is let’s say really suffering from depression and is not eating not drinking really unable to get out of bed, things like that. Are they at immediate risk of harming themselves probably not but you’re seeing that risk of injury because they’re not able to care for themselves. That’s the scenario that we’re talking about. And again they need to need (light laugh) hospitalization or treatment and they’re unwilling to volunteer or are incapable of volunteering. Again sometimes people are really sick, or let’s say due to a developmental disability struggle with understanding these kinds of decisions, particularly if someone has a guardian or something like that.

If they’re not able to make the decision voluntarily a TDO would be considered. A pre screener determines all sorts of stuff during this evaluation. Obviously they talk to the person and figure out what’s happening. They talk to the police, they see if they can get a hold of family members or whoever was there. Maybe there’s previous records at the CSB. Maybe they already have access to that persons psychiatrist because they go to the CSB. They look at all this information and at the end of it they either say nope I think this person needs to be involuntarily committed.

At that point they would, the civil commitment process would end in terms of involuntarily committing somebody but a prescreener would still work with that person to try and connect them with resources. To try and get them into an outpatient program or maybe there are crisis programs, the one I’m thinking of right now is through RBHA. They have a crisis unit. It’s on a completely voluntary basis but it provides more intensive care. 

[SUZANNE]: If you or a loved one are in crisis and can work it out to go through a voluntary system, whether that’s inpatient hospitalization or outpatient services, so much of the time the outcomes are just better for that person in terms of their recovery if they feel like they have agency over this process. If they feel like it’s their choice to go into treatment. So I just wanted to put that out into the universe. 

[REN]: It’s very true. People who have, who seek treatment voluntarily are much more invested in the treatment than people who are involuntarily committed and obviously the people who are making that decision feel like they have to make that decision to keep people safe but certainly all the voluntary services and all of the preventative services are always a much better option. 

[VIRGINIA]: And are we going to have some resources for people who might have a loved one in that kind of situation. Would they be up on our website? 

[REN]: Well we definitely have mental health resources already up on our website and we’ll make sure to have some extra quick guides or extra phone numbers that they people can get connected to those things. 

[SUZANNE]: Yeah Virginia really is a pretty big state. It’s culturally different, it’s logistically different, it’s geographically distant and so your best bet probably if you or a loved one are in crisis again is to call your local community services board cause they are going to be the most likely to know what local programs are available. And to be able to answer location specific stuff. 

And if you’re someone who doesn’t know, community services board, I don’t know what that is, I don’t know where mine is, how would they find that kind of information? 

[REN]: If you have internet access you can always just google community services board and your city or county.  So after the pre screener can say, no we’re not going to involuntarily commit this person, but obviously they can also say we’re going to pursue involuntary commitment, aka the TDO. So in this case they finished the evaluation and they send that off to the magistrate, and the magistrate then is the person who actually makes the order because obviously they are the judicial officer and they need that fancy law stamp. Once that order’s in place its the prescreener’s responsibility to find a bed.

And they have a whole list of all the available beds in all of the private and state facilities and they call. It’s a very boring process but they call everybody and say “hey I have Joe and Joe needs a bed and you go through the whole list and you figure out where a bed is a available. And once you find that bed you inform the magistrate and then they go. 

So you’re talking about calling for available beds, what if there aren’t any available beds. 

[REN]: So that’s a really good questions. We’re going to talk about the bed of last resort legislation and the reason this came about was in 2014 Senator Creigh Deeds son was going through the involuntary commitment process when we was released due to lack of available beds. Unfortunately this ended with his suicide.

So the Virginia legislature enacted what is called the bed of last resort. You’ll also hear it as the Deeds legislation and this law requires that state mental hospitals accept patients who are under Temporary Detention Orders if no bed can be found in a private facility within that 8 hours after an ECO is initiated. So what we’ll see very typically is that even with individuals who are brought to the emergency room without an ECO that when a TDO is put into place an ECO is put into place as well.

So once that ECO reaches that 8 hour limit that person is automatically sent to a state psychiatric facility. This would be Central State or Eastern State, Northern Virginia Mental health institute, things of that nature. That was specifically put into place for that not to happen. So that no matter what happens you will be sent to a facility and receive care. 

So that brings us to the end of the TDO itself. What happens when a TDO expires? Because you know it’s 3 business days, effectively 3 business days, 72 hours. So when that runs out does the person just get to leave? 

[REN]: No not quite! Sometimes maybe.  So once again when the pre screening ends and the TDO is initiated. They find you a bed. Then the police take you to the facility in which the bed is found and that 72 hours is that they consider stabilization. So you’re there to get immediate treatment. Before the end of that 72 hour window or if it’s on a holiday or weekend it might be that next business day you’ll have what’s called a commitment hearing and this is a court process involving a special justice. They hear evidence from the pre screener.

They hear evidence from the hospital that you’re in. They receive evidence from all sorts of places and they consider that evidence to determine whether that person needs to continue receiving treatment involuntarily specifically. There can be several outcomes of this but that is the specific outcome which they’re determining, whether that is necessary. At this hearing you have the right to appear at the hearing and present your own case and hear all the evidence that is presented. You will also receive a court appointed attorney.

They’re there to represent your best interests and your wishes specifically. Even if people, the court, the prescreener or what have you believe that it’s in your best interest to remain in the hospital, this court appointed attorney is there to represent your interests. So if you say I don’t want to be hospitalized, it’s their responsibility to say this person should not be hospitalized because of xyz. 

[VIRGINIA]: Now with court appointed attorneys, I know that is how it’s supposed to work, but the reality is we get enough calls to know that your mileage may vary, when it comes to court appointed attorneys. Do you have to use the attorney that’s been appointed to you or can you get your own lawyer? 

[REN]: You can get your own lawyer. That is your right, to get your own private attorney. But it’s important to know that regardless of your ability to pay for a private attorney you will be getting one for this process. Another part of the TDO/ECO civil commitment process is that the CSB providing the prescreening is responsible for contacting, or making a reasonable attempt to contact a family member, your health care agent, your guardian, someone who helps you manage these types of things, to contact them to let them know this process is happening.

That goes the same for the commitment hearing, that they are responsible for informing these people when the commitment hearing is, that they can participate in the commitment hearing. Because again a health care agent, someone who makes decisions on your behalf, if you have an advance directive, they need to be notified of this process so that they can make those decisions on your behalf! 

[SUZANNE]: Yeah I know some people will wonder is the hospital contacting these folks who may be family members who you want nothing to do with, is that a HIPPA violation? 

[REN]: So it’s the CSB that’s contacting these folks. And the CSB as part of the prescreening process should be gathering this information from you. So this should information you have provided through this process. They can’t just go into their random hat of names and just pick one out. 

[VIRGINIA]: They’re not calling your 4th grade math teacher. “Mrs Stone work on my behalf “(light laugh) It’s really more of an emergency contact that you’ve provided. That’s less creepy! 

[REN]: Again some of these folks have already had contact with the CSB or receive services with the CSB so if they’re involved in this process, the CSB should be like “ok they live with their mother and their mother always brings them to their appts let me call their mom” or this is their guardian’s name I should contact their guardian, or we already have a copy of their advance directive, let me figure out who’s on that. 

[VIRGINIA]: Speaking of advance directives, I would not be myself if I didn’t use this as an opportunity to mention that if you have an advance directive and you’re going through this involuntary commitment process, civil commitment process, that can inform things like who you want to have called without them having to ask, it can have that information on there. It can have here is who’s making decisions if I can’t make it for myself. It can even have if...

We’ll go through this in an advance directives episode later but there’s even language you can put in there if I’m really really sick and saying that I don’t consent to being hospitalized, that I as a well person writing this advance directive that I’m telling you it’s ok to voluntarily hospitalize me. So there’s you know, an advance directive may make this process look a little bit different as might powers of attorney documents, that kind of thing. 

[REN]: Well it’s kind of like how we touched on in the beginning. While this process is important to have, it should be a last resort process. The idea is that we can try to get advance directives and voluntary admissions and voluntary treatment and all of that stuff first to prevent this process from happening. 

[SUZANNE]: So we talked about what happens at the commitment hearing, what are the possible outcomes? 

[REN]: Obviously the petition could be dismissed and you’re released! You just do what you need to do out in the community. You could also have mandatory outpatient treatment ordered. This would be for up to 90 days. You can be allowed to voluntarily remain in the hospital if you’re capable of making that decision. And of course you could be involuntarily committed. So those tend to be the different outcomes that we see. And part of that process of working with your attorney or working with the individuals that you want there to be present at the hearing, is figuring out what’s the best option for you and making that case. 

[SUZANNE]: So are there other issues with the civil commitment process that we need to be aware of that we haven’t already gone over? 

[REN]: Well of course part of of what we’ve talked about as part of DLCV as an agency, is that we’ve talked about the “extraordinary barriers list”. These are folks that are at state psychiatric facilities who have been determined ready for discharge for at least 2 weeks and have not yet been discharged. Anytime somebody has been involuntarily committed and the court is then making decisions on how long they’re there you know... We want you to be discharged as quickly as possible, sometimes that doesn’t happen.

And that’s something again we as an agency are working towards but that’s one of the risks and one of the reasons we want to see if we can put all of these services in place before the involuntary commitment process occurs. Because you might be there and you might be there for a lot longer than you were hoping. And that can be really disruptive obviously to your life, to your job, to your living situation, everything like that. 

[VIRGINIA]: And while DLCV doesn’t necessarily help people who have complaints about the involuntary commitment process or who are sort of in the process of going through that; we don’t have the capability to help because that’s an active court process. We are able to help people who are a little bit stuck in the system and may need help getting discharged. That’s a good reason to call DLCV.

[REN]: And something to know about this process. The ECO doesn’t have an appeal because it a different kind of police custody thing. The TDO and the civil commitment itself those are things you can appeal. When you are awarded your court appointed attorney or hired an attorney that person can appeal the TDO itself or also appeal your civil commitment if you are involuntarily committed. So those are things that are appealable. One of the other issues again with this process, we need to speak about it very plainly, you are losing your right to make these decisions. When you are involuntarily committed you can not make the decision whether to pursue your own treatment because the court has made the decision that you are going to be in this treatment. 

[VIRGINIA]: Now that doesn’t mean you don’t get to make decisions about the treatment you’re receiving and that doesn’t mean you don’t get to participate in your own treatment but it’s not your choice whether you’re in the hospital or not. 

[REN]: And part of that means, in the state of Virginia, if you’ve been TDOed and involuntarily committed, that you lose the right to possess firearms. So that is something to be aware of again with this loss of rights, that’s something you will lose the right to do. I think it’s a misdemeanor, I’m not a lawyer don’t quote me but I’m pretty sure it’s considered a misdemeanor in this state. 

[VIRGINIA]: So thank you so much! That was a little bit of a weird note to end on (laughs) 

[REN]: Again I think this process is really confusing and there’s a lot of twists and turns in it that’s why it’s really hard to give sort of a straight forward A to B to C process because that’s just not how it works. Because you know,you could jump start the process here, you could jumpstart it here, you can get an ECO here, so you know it’s.. I would love it to be straightforward, I’m pretty sure the whole state would love it to be straightforward (group laugh) That would be great! But it just isn’t. So hopefully this is at least giving a bare bones description on sort of the big pieces of it.

[SUZANNE]: Right, and as an agency we have been working on putting together sort of a map of the civil commitment process to go up on our website so people can see sort of what it looks like. They can click through, they can see what laws apply to each section. But you know honestly  when I was putting that together I thought it was gonna look sort of like a decision tree, like everything branches out into two very neat segments. No, it looks like an @ sign some how -

[REN & VIRGINIA]:  Its very loop de loop. Its just all over the place! 

[REN]: Yeah again hopefully this information is very clear so our listeners can use it. Suzanne you did a great job as me today! Like the best me I could me! (Laughs) 

[SUZANNE]: Oh my gosh, that’s all I ever wanted to hear (group laugh) is that my impersonation of someone else, especially a co worker, is as accurate as possible! Thank you so much for breaking all of that really complex information down so that’s it’s more understandable, even though as we talked about the process itself can be very complicated. 

[REN]: You’re so welcome, I hope this helps! 

______________________________

[PRE-RECORDED VOICEOVER/NARRATOR]

And now, for a  dLCV highlight: 

Kate is a 21 year old student who has BIG DREAMS. When she and her mother first spoke to dLCV, her career goal was to work at  Chuck E Cheese. She loves children and animals, and she wants to work at a job where she can work with both.

Kate was not receiving appropriate pre job skills training (pre  employment transition services, Pre ETS) at school, and unfortunately, her only “training” was following the janitor throughout the school. When mom called dLCV, she was frustrated that the VR agencies did not see Kate as a priority. dLCV was able to step in,  advocate for appropriate vocational rehabilitation and pre employment transition services, and encourage Kate to speak up for herself. By the time we closed Kate’s case, she had gone to three different trial work experiences in jobs that she was interested in.

[VIRGINIA]: So thank you again to Ren for talking to us about that very complicated TDO/ECO process. As with so many of our topics this is one of those that’s a little hard to wrap your head around but it’s really important for folks to know about. There’s no hand book for this! 

[SUZANNE]: There’s not but I think Ren did a good job of giving us one of most basic of handbooks that we can start navigating the process. 

[VIRGINIA]: And thank you again to you Suzanne for stepping in courageously to Ren’s advocate co-host shoes and asking the most pertinent of questions.

[SUZANNE]: Thank you it’s a good way to spend an afternoon, hanging out in a podcast studio with you guys. Happy to be here. 

[VIRGINIA]: Thank you all for listening to this episode of Rights Here Rights Now, brought to you by the disAbility Law Center of Virginia. We’re available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And don’t forget to subscribe and leave a review! 

[SUZANNE]: If you need assistance, or want more information about dLCV and what we do, visit us online at dLCV.org. 

[VIRGINIA]: And follow us on Twitter @disAbilityLawVA and share us with your friends. 

[SUZANNE]: Until next time, who knows when that will be for me but I’ll think of you all fondly in the meantime. I’m your guest advocate co-host Suzanne H 

[VIRGINIA]: and I’m your co-host Virginia Pharis, and this has been – 

[VIRGINIA & SUZANNE]: Rights Here Rights Now End